OCTOBER 2008
IRON MAN: BENEATH THE ARMOR, the definitive tome of the Armored Avenger by renowned critic and author Andy Mangels, was released on April 15th, just before the release of the Iron Man motion picture. Andy did extensive candid interviews with both David Michelinie and me prior to his writing the book and I supplied Mr. Mangels with various pieces of rare Iron Man art to boot. I thought that my readers might enjoy reading the interview in its entirety, since many portions of it never made it to print.
Andy Mangels Interview of Bob Layton:
1.What is your name as you prefer to see it in print?
Bob Layton
2.Please give me your favored credits prior to your work on Iron Man. These do not need to be only Marvel, but whatever you'd prefer for the general public to know you from.
I met Roger Stern (who worked for a local radio station in Indianapolis.) and we began publishing fanzines out of my little apartment.
CPL (a pompous, overblown moniker which stands for Contemporary Pictorial Literature) was our main 'zine. It was an extremely popular fan publication for its day and eventually led us into a working relationship with Charlton Comics, with Sterno and me producing and publishing the Charlton Bullseye fanzine for the company.
The close association with Charlton (and their production manager, Bill Pearson) led to my meeting Wally Wood and becoming one of his apprentices. Once I went to work for Woody, doors started opening up for me all over the place. Through Woody, I was able to get my foot in the door at DC & Marvel Comics, where I worked as an inker on a variety of titles, including the X-Men, The Champions and All-Star Comics, to name a few. I eventually came one of Marvel’s mainstay cover artists during the 80’s.
3. What was your job on Iron Man and when/what issues did you work on?
I worked as co-plotter with writer David Michelinie and as the finished artist (inker) over a variety of pencil artists during our stint on the book. I also pencilled several dozen issues myself. David and I did issue #116-153 during our first run on the series. We came back a few years later to take up the series once more, starting with issue #215--#254. Counting annuals, special projects and the like featuring Iron Man, we lasted for 97 issues—one of the longest creative stints on a single character in Marvel history.
4. Did you read Iron Man/were you a fan before you worked on it?
Absolutely, I was a big fan of Stan Lee in general and the premise of Iron Man, in particular. However, I was also frustrated that Iron Man never really looked shiny and metallic when I was a kid. I even created my own Iron Man stories when I was young and dreamt up concepts for variant specialty armors. So, when I actually got to Marvel and fulfilled my dream of being able to work on Iron Man, I was able to inculcate those stories and designs that I dreamt up as a kid into the regular series. The now-classic Camelot Saga and the introduction of Iron Man specialty armors were a direct result of those childhood fantasies.
5. How did you get the job working on Iron Man?
Just before my contract expired at DC in the late 70’s, David Michelinie and I (we had first formed our partnership at DC, working together on Star Hunters and Claw-the Unconquered) had agreed to leave the company for greener pastures. We both sensed the impending 'Implosion' and didn't want top be a casualty of it.
Together, we went to Marvel and interviewed with Jim Shooter to work as a team there. We were given a choice of three lower end books to work on and I jumped out of my seat when I realized that Iron Man was one of those choices. That was the one book in the entire industry that I wanted to do more than any other. At the time we took it over, sales were lackluster and the book was in desperate need of revitalizing. Together, we retooled the series into the way I had always imaged it could be. David Michelinie was never a “hardcore Marvel fan” in his youth. David's lack of a personal history with Iron Man’s mythology proved to be a tremendous asset--translating into his fresher approach to the character. We had a 50/50 relationship on the plots, with both of us contributing equally to the story and character development. I have to say that David and I have always complimented each other well creatively and our time on Iron Man was one of the most fulfilling times in my career.
6. What makes Tony Stark an interesting character?
Tony doesn't play superhero role as other comic book heroes do. I believe he uses the Iron Man persona for two reasons; To protect his various business interests globally and to ground himself to the 'real world'. Keep in mind, as Tony Stark, he lives in an ivory tower…surrounded by people who tell him what they THINK he wants to hear. He has a celebrity status equal to a movie or rock star. This guy does NOT live in the 'real world'. In many ways, his being Iron Man is like 'The Prince and the Pauper'. Strangely enough, as Iron Man, he becomes a 'hands-on' guy, interacting one-on-one with people and using that anonymous identity to maintain perspective of how he's(Tony Stark) perceived by the world at large. It’s fair to say that it's another aspect of the obsessive/compulsive personality that led to his alcoholism. Iron man is 'a fix' that he needs to maintain his stability. In that story, we took that release valve away from him, which drives the character into a downward spiral.
7. What makes Iron Man an interesting character?
Character…character…and character! The elements that make a good Iron Man story are the conflicts that create change in Tony Stark. Not unlike his armor, Tony is a work in progress, constantly adapting to challenges that life throws at him while trying to control the inner demons that sometimes push him down unexpected roads. Tony has an obsessive/compulsive personality--that is his Kryptonite. The Armor Wars saga that David and I did is a prime example of that compulsion that drives him to endanger everything he's built in order to do, what he believes to be, the 'right thing'. I also was attracted to the character because he doesn’t have super powers like Superman or Spider-man. His abilities comes from the technology created by his own genius, which makes him much more credible to me as a creator,
8. Do you have any favorite supporting cast members and if so, describe who and why?
On the original two runs of Iron Man that David Michelinie and I worked together on, my favorite supporting characters were Jim Rhodes, Bethany Cabe, and Mrs. Arbogast, Tony’s personal secretary. All three of these were characters that David and I created, fulfilling a need in the series for the lead character to have normal human foils for him to bounce ideas and conflicts off of. Mrs. Arbogast was particularly funny to do because of her acerbic wit and her immunity to Tony’s charm.
9. Do you have any favorite villains and if so, describe who and why?
Justin Hammer. As well as being a tribute to the late, great Peter Cushing, David and I felt that we needed to create a corporate counterpart for Tony Stark. As benevolent as Tony was portrayed in our series, Hammer represented the other side of that coin. They were two men essentially in the same line of work, but with diametrically opposed moral views.
10. Tell me about your favorite storylines or individual stories? How were they conceived, what was the motivation?
Obviously, my favorite was the Demon in the Bottle saga that David and I came up with, which culminated in Iron Man #128. That story is now considered a milestone event by most comic book historians. David and I felt that we needed to create a personal problem for Tony Stark that fit the world of corporate business that we set him in. Given his passions and somewhat compulsive behaviors at time, the alcohol story seemed somewhat to be a natural. After that, my next favorite would be the Iron Man/Doom/Camelot saga. I was a huge fan of the Arthurian legends growing up. And, as I stated earlier, I had conceived of this storyline when I was a kid. In it, we actually took Iron Man back to the days of King Arthur. The fans have reacted to it so positively and there have been two sequels to the story since then.
11.For artists, what was your favorite element on Iron Man to draw?
The armor, obviously. The one innovation I’m mostly credited for is of turning Iron Man into a metallic-looking hero. Prior to my being on the book, he was pretty much rendered like any other costume. I took the rule-of-thumb techniques I had learned from my mentors and applied it to rendering the armor so it looked like a suit of metal, rather than just another spandex superhero outfit.
12. Did you do anything controversial while on Iron Man? If so, explain why. What was the reaction from Marvel? The reaction from the fans?
Obviously, the “Demon in a Bottle” saga was extremely controversial. However, it was well received, in spite of its groundbreaking subject matter.
In Iron Man #144, there is a back-up story in which Stark reminisces about his and Rhodey’s first meeting in Vietnam, right after he escaped from the VC camp. In it, Rhodey is smoking an obviously hand-made cigarette made of a “leafy” substance. Tony, clumsy in his never-tested armor, takes it to smoke and breaks it into pieces, upsetting Rhodey because it was the last of his ‘leafy substance’. It was a deliberate attempt to portray Rhodey and Viet Nam in a believable fashion and to add some comic relief to an otherwise grim tale. Considering the Comics Code Authority’s heavy hand in those days, it was amazing that it was never mentioned by anyone. That, or the inference simply went over their heads.
Actually, we got more flak for killing Stark International Security Chief Vic Martinelli’s dog, ‘Peanuts’(in Iron Man #147). There were literally hundreds of hate letters from fans—enraged that we killed that fictional cartoon canine. Go figure!
13. Iron Man began as a Cold War story and Tony Stark was a weapons designer. Tell me about the politics of working on Iron Man, and how those may have been affected by politics of the real world at the time you were working on it.
As you’re aware, Tony Stark received the chest wound that made the design of the life-saving armor necessary while in Vietnam. At least that’s the way it was portrayed originally. Marvel was pretty strict about leaving Vietnam alone, in terms of politics. In the case of Iron Man’s origin, it was strictly a setting. As David and I progressed with our storylines, although politics played a part in some of the plotlines, there was nothing specific to real-world politics. Most of the time, it was make-believe senators and fictional government policies.
David and I returned to Marvel in 2000 to do an Iron Man mini-series called Bad Blood. It had been quite a few years since we had original tackled the character, and during our absence, the editorial powers had succeeded in making Tony Stark incredibly p.c. He was no longer a playboy, his business had become totally altruistic and non-profit. Those elements made it a lot different and a little more difficult to portray him the way we saw him, creatively.
14.The Mandarin and other Iron Man villains could be seen as racial stereotypes. How did you handle them?
The only Iron Man villain that comes to mind that would be a racial stereotype would be The Mandarin. David and I avoided him entirely in our first run of the series for that very reason. However, when we came back in the 80s for our second tour of duty, we decided to give the Mandarin a makeover. In our story, he was a South-East Asian businessman, with a private agenda of power-grabbing. He wore modern clothing and lived in present-day society. Strangely enough, that didn’t go over too well with some of the fans who preferred the Fu-Manchu mustache and flowing robes.
15. Tony Stark has had bouts with alcoholism. Did your work touch on that (or other 'real world social issues") and if so, how?
It was our idea to do the alcoholic storyline in "Iron Man" in the first place, Andy. We were the first to ever touch on the subject in comics.
David and I wanted to create a weakness for Stark that wasn't the ‘heart attack of the month’. His alcoholism was one thing the armor couldn't fix. I think that worked out well as his personal demon.
For more, check out the link: http://www.boblayton.com/Archive/October%2004/wizard_1.htm
16. James Rhodes became Iron Man for a time, thus becoming (as with John Stewart in green lantern) the African-American replacement for a major super-hero. Unlike Stewart though, most people didn't know that Iron Man was now black. If you worked on Rhodes issues (or later War Machine stories) please discuss that.
We had no idea that Jim Rhodes would be such a mainstay when David and I created him back in Iron Man #117. He evolved from a small supporting role into a large role in our storylines. I don't think Dave or I knew at the time how big he would become in the series.
Remember there weren't a lot of strong African American characters in the Marvel Universe at that time and David and I wanted to give Tony a foil with a dissimilar background from his own.One of the biggest problems with comics in general is that few are couched in the real world these days. Everyone is a mutant or alien or cyborg. The supporting characters exist to ground the reader in a sense of reality. Through their eyes, we witness the fantastic and react in a believable manner. Rhodey was created by David and me to ground Tony Stark's fantastic exploits in some degree of reality. It was a mistake, in my opinion, to turn him into War Machine. That dilutes his primary role by making him no different than the character he was created to support. David and I had nothing to do with the storyline that turned James Rhodes into War Machine.
17. What were the specific challenges in working on Iron Man?
In my opinion, when we took over the series, Tony Stark was little more than a vehicle used to get the armor on him and go into action. David and I felt that it was more important concentrate on the man inside the suit than the suit itself. That’s why we introduced an entire cast of new supporting characters and changed the emphasis of the series to the world of corporate intrigue. Also, from an artistic level, I had to learn tricks in order to show emotion in a facemask that is static and inflexible. I learned various techniques as I went along of angling the head and intensifying the detail in the eyes in order to show expression.
18. What did the armor and its changeability add to (or restrict) in creating Iron Man adventures?
What was cutting-edge ten years ago is totally obsolete today. Technology is constantly evolving and so should Iron Man. That was my thinking when I originally created the concept of the specialty armors. There's a huge difference between a stock car and Indy car. Each is designed for specific tasks and THAT was our thinking when approaching the Iron Man armor. It's unrealistic to presume that one device can adapt to all situations and environments. Making this fictional technology believable is the key to making the entire premise work.
19. Technology has changed significantly since Iron Man was created. How did those changes affect your Iron Man stories?
I've always had an aptitude for science as a kid--which is something of a contradiction for someone with an artistic leaning. I've continued to read scientific journals and such to this day. That's probably why David Michelinie usually left the scientific stuff to me when we worked on stories together. I've always been fascinated with certain aspects of science and I love applying what I read to my work. I really want my contemporary stories, which have science as a theme, to be on the cutting-edge of the technological frontier. Remember that it's the man on the inside is what makes him special, not the electronic gadget he dons.
My philosophy has been that the Iron Man technology should continue to evolve and streamline. The one thing that Marvel does that drives me nuts is that they keep making the Iron Man armor more bulky more loaded with clunky crap. I read scientific journals and such regularly. David left most of that science stuff to me when we were working on the series. I believe that the next twenty years is going to open up new avenues of scientific exploration that has only been dreamt of in the past. Tony Stark should always be on the cutting-edge of that frontier.
20. Was there anything you wanted to do on Iron Man that you were unable to do because it was a corporate licensed character?
The only time David and I ever had anything bounced by editorial was during a bedroom scene between Tony Stark and a young lady. Nothing was shown on camera, but in the aftermath, Tony wakes up the next morning with a shapely lump covered by the bed sheets. That isn’t what got them upset though. What unnerved them was the fact that we had an open condom wrapper on the night stand. Marvel felt that it was totally inappropriate to insinuate so directly that Tony had sex. The ridiculousness of this argument is that they were defending unprotected sex. We were able to keep the scene, but had to take the condom wrapper out. Go figure!
21. Why do you think that Iron Man has thrived as a hero for 40 years? James Bondian wish-fulfillment? Gadgets? The visual appeal of the character?
I think it’s all of those things. But, the primary appeal is that modern-day knight-in-armor. Iron Man is the modern day representation of those Arthurian ideals, which has thrived in literature for centuries. He is the king of his own empire, he wields power judiciously, and punishes those who seek to destroy what he has built.
22. Do you think that due to its themes, Iron Man is mostly an adult comic, or is it something kids can relate to?
I think Iron Man has been a comic book for general audiences. There have been some adult “moments,” but overall the storylines were designed to be read by everyone. Now, I understand that these days, comics are being done for more niche’ audiences and Iron Man has taken on more clearly adult themes.
23. Did anything you contributed to Iron Man later become a part of any other version of Iron Man (i.e. the cartoons, the toys, the movie)?
As much as I want the Iron Man movie to be a winner, there’s no telling how it’s going to turn out. A friend of mine, who is an executive producer on a hit TV series and a hardcore Iron Man fan, recently asked me if Jon Favreau had contacted either David or me about consulting on the film. He was shocked to discover that no one from the production had bothered to consult the two guys most known for that character’s renaissance. As I told him, I chalked it up to the way business is done out there these days. That--and the prevalent fear by producers that acknowledging our contributions could lead to a frivolous Michelinie/ Layton lawsuit. (I give you the recent Ghost Rider lawsuit by Gary Friedrich as Exhibit #1). You know as well as I do that you’re going to see some of what David and I created up on that screen next May, like Jim Rhodes for example. But that stuff was done as work-for-hire and I’ve long since accepted that there nothing to be done about that.
Nor…would I.
I was watching the Iron Man animated flick with my new art assistant, who asked me, at one point, why I had such a sour look on my face. The work-for-hire agreement that was in place during our initial run on Iron Man in the 70’s assures that neither David Michelinie nor I will ever see a single cent for my creation of those specialty armors, Jim Rhodes, Mrs. Arbogast’s personality (transplanted into the film version of Pepper Potts) or the host of other concepts we gleefully donated to the lexicon of Iron Man.
I recently found out that they’ve made a statue out of my ‘Demon in a Bottle’ Iron Man #128 cover. You’d think I would have received a freebee one from Marvel licensing…but no.
This brings me back to my work-for-hire argument in my comments about the DVD. This statue retails for $175.00 each. However, I get no money or credit for this project, even though it’s based on something created solely by me. Marvel released an entire line of Iron Man action figures based on my specialty armor designs. There was a cartoon show in the 90’s that literally lifted stories that David and I wrote for the comic series—but we received no money or credit.
So, my feelings are bittersweet—but I won’t let that cloud my judgment.
I’m simply grateful that the industry has finally changed and creators can now share in the spoils of merchandising.
It’s no secret that Marvel is benefiting from the work that David Michelinie and I contributed to the series without granting us any financial compensation. I equate it to having naked pictures of yourself on the internet--and there's not a bleedin' thing you can do about it. The creation of those characters and concepts fall under the "work-for-hire' agreement that was prevalent at the time at Marvel and they can make millions off those characters without ever paying us a cent or giving us a line of acknowledgement.
Is that fair? No--but it IS legal and there's no point belaboring it.
24. What did you enjoy most about your time on Iron Man?
What I enjoyed the most was the camaraderie I had in creating the monthly ventures with my best friend David Michelinie. I also have had been very appreciative of the incredibly loyal fans that our work on the series created.
25. Are there any other elements of working on Iron Man I didn't ask about here that you want to discuss?
I think we covered everything, Andy.
26. Sum up your time on Iron Man. Happy, sad, good, bad?
Obviously, David and I were able to reshape the initial Stan Lee concept into something whose legacy endures to this day. That is something more gratifying than any creator can usually hope for in their career.
I consider Bob Layton.com (my personal website) to be as much of an Iron Man website as any of those others out there. I genuinely treat my website as a monthly entertainment venue. Of course, I cover a variety of aspects of my career and even discuss non-comics topics. But the content of the site is inexorably dominated by Iron Man subject matter. I don’t consider that a negative.
There really haven’t been negatives to being associated with Iron Man…with the possible exception of that legacy having a tendency to overshadow any of my current work. I remember going to conventions (as the E.I.C of Valiant Comics) to promote the company-- but all the fans wanted to talk about, regardless of what I was involved in creating at the moment, was Iron Man. At the time, I found that somewhat frustrating, but these days, I’ve come to embrace that legacy. No one loves that character more than me. I’m the biggest Iron Man fan I know.
I think it's the uniqueness of Tony Stark's character that David Michelinie and I created that links me to him and the fans. Obviously, we must have done something right.
I feel very fortunate and privileged to have such a loyal and vocal fan base.